I've got to say if VR does it right and Pantheon comes out in a decent time you guys could snag more players than I think what will be let on for just a "niche" group. Shadowlands will grab people attention for 2-3 months and die back out. Blizzard has become lazy with content and have proven that they will continue to do so no matter the cry out from their playbase for something new. 8.3 will probably be out by Christmas time, people will clear the content in a couple weeks as they release heroic and mythic raiding and the accounts will go back to inactive until Shadowlands release. Classic at this point is what's keeping players around based on the numbers they've posted for active subs in Classic. It's a shame really.
Diablo 4 is my guess 4 years out (hence why I hope Pantheon releases before that) and while the graphics do look nice it seems they are just adding more of the same thing from D3 and calling it something else. Time will tell as they release more info on it I suppose.
I'm not saying Pantheon will be the WoW killer, but the trend that current blizz devs are going seems to be killing their own game. With the right conditions I honestly do believe Pantheon may set forth another stepping stone for the MMO genre. We'll see. But I do think it's time for a new MMO tyrant to take over, Blizzards had their time and have shown the best they can come up with is recycled content with new colors.
Again just my speculation from watching Blizzcon and seeing a ton of the feedback. So far I give them 6/10 and that's only because of the announcment of D4.
Cheers VR hope you guys set a new path that other companies may take a page from your book.
I have currently been playing WoW as my filler game while I wait for Pantheon. One of the things that I currently hate about WoW is the healer viability and balance in Mythic raiding due to encounters requiring healers to dps. I have been keeping up with the info released during bliz-con and one of the things that concern me is the fact that they have yet to directly address if/how they are going to address their class balancing issues in the next expansion. They have said they are bringing back one of the developers who has handled class design in the past and that they would be potentially adding back some of the spells that have been removed over time. While this is nice and all it is not a direct address to the current balance state.
I'll be honest I have been rummaging around on the wow forums, and in the comment section of youtube videos related to the healing balance situation. There are a good number of us who are tired and disappointed with this healer meta and how it has revolved around who can do the most damage. There are still a good number of us out here who play healers because they were meant to heal and support. I've encountered a number of people who are of the shared mentality that "If we wanted to play a dps, we would play a dps". To be honest, it has been oddly refreshing reading these comments and seeing that this is not a lost mentality. I'll be honest if the healer community in WoW were ever to unify and go on strike... WoW, would be dead in less than a week. No raiding, no high-level dungeons, PVP would become extremely difficult. This won't ever happen though, but slowly killing your healing population by driving it away... yields the same effect just over a longer period of time. Though seeing how WoW continues to progress into a solo based game anyway... in 2 to 3 years the need for a healer might not even be present.
Anyway, I have two points with this. My first point with this is that class balance is important and every class should be viable in the hardest setting regardless of their role. No one should ever feel like they are left out in the cold because their class can compete with the other classes within their role competitively. My second point is that the role of healer, tank, and DPS was created for a reason and each has its own job within a group. The tanks are there to protect the group by navigating the boss and taking hits from the adds, the dps job is to kill the stuff in a timely manner/provide cc when necessary, and the healer's job is to heal the group, provide utility, and possibly CC should the need arise.
If the issue becomes "O well there's downtime so healers should be dpsing" change the battle formula. Make it so there isn't any downtime. Make it so we constantly have to heal, make it so we have to constantly consider or mana reserves, make the encounters utterly chaotic. I can't speak for other healers but I love chaos. If I'm not healing then I'm not doing my job, the more damage that is incoming and the harder I have to fight to keep you alive the bigger the rush I get. I don't get a rush from having to mundanely DPS inefficiently as a healer, but blowing every ounce of mana I have to keep someone alive in a critical moment that leads us to killing the mob... that is a rush. From what I have experienced in WoW the best gameplay moments are when the group has everything in _____ and creation on them and are fighting against all odds to live and then somehow end up surviving that encounter against the odds. Those are the moments that get the adrenaline pumping and the brain releasing oxytocin. Those are the moments that get you really addicted to the game and those are some of the moments that stick with you forever. Some of my lasting memories from EQ were due to the fact that mobs could be trained, and it led to group encounters where we had to fight against all odds. We weren't able to always make it out alive... but even with the death penalty the fights were epic and that more than made up for the "small" consequence of death.
Real and exciting gameplay doesn't come from scripted encounters and boss fights. It comes from encountering unexpected chaos, fighting against all odds to overcome that chaos, and living through that chaos. And should a piece of loot happen to drop for someone in the group... well that can lead to screams and shouts of excitement. One of the issues with modern games is that there's no element of chaos. Everything is scripted and there are add-ons. There are no OMG! OMG! OMG! moments anymore as everything is either displayed through bright red circles on the ground, or an addon tells you when and what ability is being used next. Fear is not always a negative emotion... and the combination of fear associated adrenaline with the adrenaline of winning can lead to a very addictive drug combination in the brain. I believe Everquest had a period of time where people referred to it as EverCrack and I believe this was due to the fact that encounters had an element of unexpected chaos. My father still remembers an encounter in the eastern common lands tunnel. He was killed by dragon fire form a dragon who spawned five zones. Today we would write that off as just bad game design, but that element of randomness lead to an encounter that he still remembers today. I believe there are a couple of sayings regarding chaos one is "Chaos breeds life where order breeds habit" and the other is "chaos breeds creation". Chaotic randomness can be a good thing for player retention, and communal bonds. I honestly think that this is what the preception based dispositions are trying to add I just hope there is an element of randomness within mobs that have the same disposition or mobs that are in a group with various dispositions.
Baldur said:...One of the things that I currently hate about WoW is the healer viability and balance in Mythic raiding due to encounters requiring healers to dps...
If anything was ever utterly different between WoW and EQ, then. I remember in EQ being a bit peed off because I got to do *nothing* other than heal (as a high level cleric) and got criticised if I did anything but heal in the most efficient manner possible. I didn't really even get to throw in stuns and certainy didn't get to drop in my pet hammer. Just stand up, heal and sit down again! I would get moaned at by the group if they saw me doing other stuff "What if we got adds or something?!". My reply would be, "Yeah, that might be exciting as opposed to my current biggest struggle: trying to stay awake".
Whilst I wouldn't want to go as far as WoW apparently has, be careful what you wish for. I would certainly like to do more than 100% heal and refresh buffs like in Classic EQ.
Obviously, cleric is not supposed to be DPS, but it would be good if they could do something worthwhile when they aren't being stretched healing-wise.
I'm currently playing FF14, and the situation there is similar for healers: The "meta" says that healers should dps when not healing. And there too are players who like this approach, and some who are turned off by it. Personally I enjoy having something more to do than just healing. If the tank is fine right now, and I know that no AE is coming in the next few moments...why would I not cast a spell or two to make the mobs go down quicker? I hope that healers in Pantheon won't be just heal/buff bots.
Lilith from the Diablo 4 trailer was badass! loved that.
https://youtu.be/0SSYzl9fXOQ?t=496
When you start giving healers the ability to do damage you run into viability issues because not only do you have to balance hps output, and utility/cc capabilities but you also have to start worrying about balancing damage capabilities. It's the issue that WOW is currently because of muddied role design.
I'm going to bring up this ability that is currently planned for Pantheon.
Preserver's Wildfire is a druid ability: You animate three tendrils of Verdanfire that lash around you wildly, damaging any enemy and healing any ally they touch. These tendrils grow longer and reach farther every second for the duration of the ability. You will be able to animate more than three tendrils based on your Wisdom, Intelligence and Constitution.
This ability should be screaming NO at you guys. Based on the fact that it damages anything it touches means that it is capable of breaking CC which means that its viability as an AoE heal in content is extremely limited, which means that druid aoe healing capabilities take a hit.
I'll link another ability one that is better designed but is still flawed.
Eko's Purifying Bolt is a cleric ability: You release a bolt of purifying light into an Undead enemy, inflicting Divine damage. This ability then jumps to heal your Defensive target for an amount equal to the damage dealt. The healing effect will attempt to cure Poisons and Diseases on the affected ally.
This ability is better designed as a dps/heal because you have control over what it hits and it is also limited to the undead. The issue with this ability becomes how much of the higher-end content is revolves around undead mobs. If they are or ever become the dominate mob type then this spell could put clerics above all the other classes. Clerics are already the stereotypical healer so presumably, they will be the kings of HPS. If you enter a reality where they can also provide damage in the majority of the content then you have just invalidated the other two healers. There is also another minor issue tied to its healing component. You have to have an undead target in order to be able to cure poisons and diseases and if your fighting any other mob type you apparently don't have access to this purifying effect. This isn't necessarily a bad thing because it gives shamans viability due to the fact they are not limited when it comes to purifying poisons and diseases.
Baldur, I've seen games where CC and AoE have some safety checks to prevent issues like what you suggest in Preserver's Wildfire. Since that's a hybrid spell, I wouldn't put it past the devs to make the damage component not touch controlled mobs, while still allowing the beneficial portion to land. If not, perhaps they will be ground-targetted and small enough that control will be the counter there. If they're like Vanguard's rogue flechettes that just hit everything within 30y+, yeah, that'd be a no-no.
And sad to say, the devs mentioned (I think in the same videos as the racial passives?) that undead of one form or another will make up a sizeable, maybe majority, portion of high level mobs. So that's your other point sullied a bit by dev plans. Personally, I'm not worried about it, yet. That's basically an undead-only DD-lifetap with "attempts" to cure - makes it sound pretty niche and unreliable (maybe weak healing) to have on bar unless in an undead area. Even then, maybe it just takes the slot of another, similar spell without the undead component? I'm also guessing it's not spammable and would have at least a 12s CD (total speculation). So if clerics get a couple spells that CAN do damage to undead, that'd be in keeping with decades of the class' previous lore IMHO. Clerics may also be unlikely to use their DDs in groups unless they have utility like that Purifying Bolt (meaning they're still healing and won't get the cleric yelled at for wasting mana). I'd rather clerics get some situational (undead) damage/control to make their class not entirely one-sided - give a chance for players to shake up their routines.
Again though, I'm not worried about it. Sure, a cleric will probably outheal a druid among undead. But a druid will out AoE heal a cleric any day, and a shaman will probably out-HoT. I also expect druids to get HoTs, but do I expect them to be as good as shaman HoTs, nah. Classes are going to be specialized, but judging by the preview abilities so far, I'd say we're looking at an increase in utility in classes, if not roles. I'd say the spellbooks might look a bit more like Vanguard or a few expansions into EQ, where everyone had a bit more flavor.
Edit: I'm also less sure about clerics being kings of heals-per-second. AoE heals usually beat out single-target for numbers. HoTs also typically outheal direct heals over time, given no overhealing. So, single target, direct healing-per-second for clerics, sure. Tank healing - maybe (I could see a druid DS maybe synergizing better with Dire Lord or something). Heals per second being dominated by clerics in every situation, not entirely sold on that one though.
disposalist said:Baldur said:...One of the things that I currently hate about WoW is the healer viability and balance in Mythic raiding due to encounters requiring healers to dps...
If anything was ever utterly different between WoW and EQ, then. I remember in EQ being a bit peed off because I got to do *nothing* other than heal (as a high level cleric) and got criticised if I did anything but heal in the most efficient manner possible. I didn't really even get to throw in stuns and certainy didn't get to drop in my pet hammer. Just stand up, heal and sit down again! I would get moaned at by the group if they saw me doing other stuff "What if we got adds or something?!". My reply would be, "Yeah, that might be exciting as opposed to my current biggest struggle: trying to stay awake".
Whilst I wouldn't want to go as far as WoW apparently has, be careful what you wish for. I would certainly like to do more than 100% heal and refresh buffs like in Classic EQ.
Obviously, cleric is not supposed to be DPS, but it would be good if they could do something worthwhile when they aren't being stretched healing-wise.
I'll be honest as a healer you are one member of a team of three who control the flow of battle. That team consists of you, the enchanter and the tank and I'll be honest you and the enchanter have more sway than the tank. If you were ever bored to the point of falling asleep it was time for you to go out and create a simulation of controlled chaos with your enchanter. I honestly never had that issue because I would always work with my enchanter to go out and get more when things were dull. My mentality was and still is "If I have mana at the end of the fight we didn't pull enough". Now obviously boss fights are a bit different and more control is needed but for general mobing... go out and create your own fun. Your mana pool, your skill in healing, and the ability of the enchanter to CC is what controls the pacing of the fight. Honestly, it sounds like your boredom stemmed from the fact your group wasn't utilizing you to your full potential or your class's full potential and yeah that can be boring.
Ill the honest I miss the days of buffing (maybe not the fact that buffing took so much mana and led to soo much downtime) but the fact that it was part of your utility and I miss the days that healing, utility, and cc were more or less our strict job classification. Healers don't need damage to have fun which seems to be a common misconception by most. No, what we need is chaos to control and randomness within an encounter. I feel like this whole need to give healers damage is because encounters have been made so controlled. Typically you always know when X, Y, and Z are going to happen and how you need to deal with those mechanics. After those mechanics have passed you have downtime that you need to kill. The answer to this downtime has become let's make our healers DPS and that is not the correct answer.
The other issue I have with Dps spells/ abilities for healers is there's never a downside for using them. I feel like there should a clear advantage/disadvantage for using them over a healer. For example, a tank has access to a DPS spell or a mitigation ability and they both cost the same amount of an energy source. There is a clear disadvantage in this situation, however, with healers in most games DPS abilities seem to cost 1/10th of a heal. There's no give/take in this situation and that's not good class design.
Then if you were to look at WoW and its encounter design this expansion, they further tilt the scale. The top two healers are currently Holy Paladins and Discipline Priests. Holy paladins are able to provide massive amounts of utility, high HPS output (which is no longer limited to single target healing), and to top it off their holy shock spell/ and wings (holy wrath) can heal while being used for damage. Discipline Priests are in the same boat, they can provide a lot of raid-wide utility. They can heal multiple people easily and their whole class trope was designed around doing damage to heal. The four other healing specs don't have access to a lot of raid-wide utility (with the exception of the shaman), and are not capable dpsing in order to heal. The shaman is currently considered the 3rd most viable spec for mythic progression, however, they don't have the damage output like the other two classes. Since there is currently no penalty for stacking 2 holy paladins and 2 disc priests the other classes don't really have a place. This brings up my point about balancing and class viability though. Even though shamans are the 3rd most viable due to their group utility capabilities they are overlooked because of their lack of damage to healing output. The other 3 healers (resto druids, holy priests, and mist weaver monks) don't have any group-wide utility much less the ability to damage and heal at the same time. In order to balance this mess of a healing meta you either remove the ability to DPS and heal at the same time, or you go back in and give every class a group-wide utility spell and the ability to DPS and heal at the same time. I should even have to explain what a balancing nightmare this becomes... but I will. Now not only do you have to balance around HPS output and utility capabilities (and this means the development of utility spells for 3 of the healers), but you have to balance around DPS output and DPS to healing conversion. I'll be honest, I don't have faith in Blizzard to be able to correctly address this issue. This is an issue that I would associate with a new gaming company or a game that has been out for a year or two, not a game and company that have been around for 15 years. Like I personally feel that class balance is something that you should be good at after 15 years, but this is what happens when you start blurring the lines between roles and making your job more complicated.
Baldur said:disposalist said:Baldur said:...One of the things that I currently hate about WoW is the healer viability and balance in Mythic raiding due to encounters requiring healers to dps...
If anything was ever utterly different between WoW and EQ, then. I remember in EQ being a bit peed off because I got to do *nothing* other than heal (as a high level cleric) and got criticised if I did anything but heal in the most efficient manner possible. I didn't really even get to throw in stuns and certainy didn't get to drop in my pet hammer. Just stand up, heal and sit down again! I would get moaned at by the group if they saw me doing other stuff "What if we got adds or something?!". My reply would be, "Yeah, that might be exciting as opposed to my current biggest struggle: trying to stay awake".
Whilst I wouldn't want to go as far as WoW apparently has, be careful what you wish for. I would certainly like to do more than 100% heal and refresh buffs like in Classic EQ.
Obviously, cleric is not supposed to be DPS, but it would be good if they could do something worthwhile when they aren't being stretched healing-wise.
I'll be honest as a healer you are one member of a team of three who control the flow of battle. That team consists of you, the enchanter and the tank and I'll be honest you and the enchanter have more sway than the tank. If you were ever bored to the point of falling asleep it was time for you to go out and create a simulation of controlled chaos with your enchanter. I honestly never had that issue because I would always work with my enchanter to go out and get more when things were dull. My mentality was and still is "If I have mana at the end of the fight we didn't pull enough". Now obviously boss fights are a bit different and more control is needed but for general mobing... go out and create your own fun. Your mana pool, your skill in healing, and the ability of the enchanter to CC is what controls the pacing of the fight. Honestly, it sounds like your boredom stemmed from the fact your group wasn't utilizing you to your full potential or your class's full potential and yeah that can be boring.
Yes, but the majority of fights weren't utilising full potential. The majority of fights, by the nature of the game being balanced, are average. If they weren't then every add or mishap would kill you which would also be kind of tedious in a different way.
Often you couldn't just tell your group to pull more, but let's not get into how contested content and overpopulated zones can negatively effect the game. I'm not going to suggest instances or shards just to stop clerics getting bored.
The way to stop clerics getting bored is to give them more to do than heal efficiently. Yes, that should be a proper choice not just throw-away 'free' DPS.
I like the idea of spells that heal in relation to damage done, but that should obvious not be as efficient and should not be primary.
Baldur said:Ill the honest I miss the days of buffing (maybe not the fact that buffing took so much mana and led to soo much downtime) but the fact that it was part of your utility and I miss the days that healing, utility, and cc were more or less our strict job classification. Healers don't need damage to have fun which seems to be a common misconception by most. No, what we need is chaos to control and randomness within an encounter. I feel like this whole need to give healers damage is because encounters have been made so controlled. Typically you always know when X, Y, and Z are going to happen and how you need to deal with those mechanics. After those mechanics have passed you have downtime that you need to kill. The answer to this downtime has become let's make our healers DPS and that is not the correct answer.
THis is true. My comments above are in relation to an EQ Classic experience and there's no reason Pantheon has to be quite like that, though there are going to be 'truths' like 'average' encounters *cannot* be too demanding, else any surprises and dynamism will simply kill you.
Baldur said:The other issue I have with Dps spells/ abilities for healers is there's never a downside for using them. I feel like there should a clear advantage/disadvantage for using them over a healer. For example, a tank has access to a DPS spell or a mitigation ability and they both cost the same amount of an energy source. There is a clear disadvantage in this situation, however, with healers in most games DPS abilities seem to cost 1/10th of a heal. There's no give/take in this situation and that's not good class design.
Agreed and as I said above, the choice for a cleric to not use their most efficient and effective heals should be a meaningful choice. In Classic EQ the cleric's stun and DPS (and buff) spells were very mana costly or very ineffective such that it was a waste to cast them. They shouldn't be 'free' of course, but they shouldn't be useless (either by being too weak or costly or both) either.
It's a small consideration, but it also made soloing near impossible for clerics. Some monsters you simple could not damage faster than they naturally healed, most you would damage them so slowly that the encounter took so long you would use all you mana healing yourself from their auto-attack and spent *long* periods on your backside.