Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

I've been thinking

    • 1584 posts
    November 1, 2019 6:23 AM PDT

    I've been thinking, and pondering on how to keep old zones, outposts, and our homelands alive once new expansions start coming in, now i know we shouldnt be thinking this far ahead just yet, but honestly lets be real any and all topics covering speculation, and possibilities have already been talked about, so i wanted to see what people wanted to think about this.

    When new expanions drops they are probably going to bring in new zones, dungeons, and maybe a few raid targets, and maybe even a new area people find favorable to call "home." which is where usually the old zones simply just start to be a lot less popular than they were before it dropped.  But, i am wondering what if you add to these old dungeons, could be an entirely different zone of the dungeon or simply just expand it(obviously just making a new zone would probably be the easiest approach, this would add value to the old places and have these zones still be full of life, at least in the outposts, and maybe homelands which are near them.

    I think simply put when you make new content, have some of the content leak into your old content so your old content doesnt dwindle and dry out and become ghost towns like almost every other mmo does, in one way or another, obviously it doesn't have to be only dungeons, it can be anywhere, I am just giving out a suggestion of where it could be to keep our original zones healthy.  Give us a reason why we would want to go back to these zones, and not to just leveling up alts and such, but our mains to revisit these areas to dive in deeper into them when they open up.

    • 1019 posts
    November 1, 2019 6:55 AM PDT

    High level entrances to caves or even camps should be intermingled inside of "low level" zones.

    • 627 posts
    November 1, 2019 7:55 AM PDT
    Id always though that it was weird that only low lvl crafting mats are found in low lvl zones and only high lvl mats are from high lvl zones. Thats not how our natue works.

    A rare flower, a special tree or a gem found when mineing ore can, could and should be found in many different places in the world. Like the starter zoes.

    This can being activity to zones that dont have many players lvling in them, due to the vast majority of the player base have moved on to higher lvl zones.
    • 2756 posts
    November 1, 2019 8:06 AM PDT

    Wasn't the port-in area for Hate in one of the low level zones in EQ?  I seem to remember seeing a whole load of flashy looking high level characters assembling for a raid and it was interesting to see and to chat with them.

    • 3852 posts
    November 1, 2019 8:22 AM PDT

    The one thing I *do not* want is high level enemies one-shotting new characters in lower level zones. Some people feel that this adds excitement - I feel that it adds discouragement and a feeling of unfairness since even the best developed and best played character in the game will go down faster than a 5 copper .....well never mind.

    • 62 posts
    November 1, 2019 8:24 AM PDT

    I do think it's important to keep low level/starter areas as intermixed as possible.  When a game gets a year or so old, new players dwindle down so in turn the starter areas feel more and more empty.  As a new player trying to revisit some older mmo's, the starting areas feel empty like I am the only one playing.  This can turn off new players trying to enter the game and especially if Pantheon elects to keep the free trial for the longterm.

    I can imagine it's something very challenging to accomplish that clashes to some degree with making the world feel large and expansive.  Maybe the extreme climate and acclimation system will help to aid this issue.  These higher level or expansion areas will be "locked" out until you obtain the requisite higher level glyphs.  Max level players don't necessarily have to intermix with the starter areas, but rather have it tiered with a level 20-30 dungeon(s) near the starter cities.  Then level 60's can have a dungeon(s) near the level 30 hunting areas/towns and so on.  

    • 1921 posts
    November 1, 2019 8:30 AM PDT

    The gate to fear was in Feerrott, while the access to Hate was via Wizard, after purchasing a Fuligan Soulstone of Innoruuk from Dvis Zexus in Neriak.
    On the subject of keeping all zones relevant, over the past 5 years on these forums, there have been many great ideas discussed into possible implementations.  Some involve variants of Progeny, Colored Mana, Item Sacrifice, Perception, Worship, Crafting, Diplomacy, Prestige, and more.
    It simply requires the humility and resolve to implement them. :)

    • 1019 posts
    November 1, 2019 8:55 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    The one thing I *do not* want is high level enemies one-shotting new characters in lower level zones. Some people feel that this adds excitement - I feel that it adds discouragement and a feeling of unfairness since even the best developed and best played character in the game will go down faster than a 5 copper .....well never mind.

    If you think of zones like EQ's Qeynos Hill, sure.  But take a zone that is 10 times that big if there is a high level mob that wanders around in a part of that zone I see no issue.

    • 2419 posts
    November 1, 2019 9:09 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    dorotea said:

    The one thing I *do not* want is high level enemies one-shotting new characters in lower level zones. Some people feel that this adds excitement - I feel that it adds discouragement and a feeling of unfairness since even the best developed and best played character in the game will go down faster than a 5 copper .....well never mind.

    If you think of zones like EQ's Qeynos Hill, sure.  But take a zone that is 10 times that big if there is a high level mob that wanders around in a part of that zone I see no issue.

    Until a high level character drags it over into the lower level area, drops aggro and then the high level NPC spends all its time killing lower level characters. If you played EQ1 you remember people pulling Sgt. Slate into the EC tunnel, do you not?  Same thing will happen. 

    Ah, but you migth reply with "so that is why mobs should be leashed" to which VR has said any number of times mobs will not be leashed.  So yeah, its gonna happen. In fact, I'll do it myself to make sure it happens.  :)


    This post was edited by Vandraad at November 1, 2019 9:10 AM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    November 1, 2019 9:41 AM PDT

    im cool with all this on a pvp server ^______________________^

    as long as anything goes when it comes to savages, i approve of letting players of different walks of life run amuck hehe.  power to the players muahhahahha!  let loose the pawgs of pvp1111!

     

    • 2752 posts
    November 1, 2019 9:49 AM PDT

    The answer is an evolving world with less outward expansion and more upward expansion. Instead of constantly adding new continents and zones with each expansion, change/replace the existing zones. With the lore of Terminus they can very well replace/change just about anywhere they want by means of a collision event. 

    • 1315 posts
    November 1, 2019 9:53 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Ah, but you migth reply with "so that is why mobs should be leashed" to which VR has said any number of times mobs will not be leashed.  So yeah, its gonna happen. In fact, I'll do it myself to make sure it happens.  :)

    I did not think they have ever directly said that. I know they have seem to like the idea of trains as a way to increase the general danger and need for spacial awarness but there are tons better ways than than creating rediculus piles of colision ignoring agro chains that someone elses poor play dumped on you.

    • 1019 posts
    November 1, 2019 10:32 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Ah, but you migth reply with "so that is why mobs should be leashed" to which VR has said any number of times mobs will not be leashed.  So yeah, its gonna happen. In fact, I'll do it myself to make sure it happens.  :)

    No, I'd say mobs should think as players as we think of mobs.  We don't attack grey mobs, and we don't attack Red mobs.  If a HLM (high level mob) gets "pulled" over to a lowbie area it'll be like.  Who cares.  It's not going to worry about the grey con players to it.  It'll only attack things in it's level "aggro" range.

    • 2419 posts
    November 1, 2019 11:09 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    Vandraad said:

    Ah, but you migth reply with "so that is why mobs should be leashed" to which VR has said any number of times mobs will not be leashed.  So yeah, its gonna happen. In fact, I'll do it myself to make sure it happens.  :)

    No, I'd say mobs should think as players as we think of mobs.  We don't attack grey mobs, and we don't attack Red mobs.  If a HLM (high level mob) gets "pulled" over to a lowbie area it'll be like.  Who cares.  It's not going to worry about the grey con players to it.  It'll only attack things in it's level "aggro" range.

    Which is a very exploitable mechanic to say the least.  Your level 1 character would have near limitless free reign to go anywhere in the world with no fear at all for anything 'red'.  You want to scout that raid mob?  Move a level 1 alt there.  Want to ninjaloot mobs that high level characters are fighting?  Take that level 1 alt there.  I could go on as to why NPCs not attacking things that con grey to them would be phenomenally terrible.

    • 1921 posts
    November 1, 2019 11:49 AM PDT

    Trasak said:I did not think they have ever directly said that. I know they have seem to like the idea of trains as a way to increase the general danger and need for spacial awarness but there are tons better ways than than creating rediculus piles of colision ignoring agro chains that someone elses poor play dumped on you.
    Yet, they seem very " pro training ". :)

    14.2 Will there be mob trains in Pantheon?
    Yes. In fact, with our better mob pathing, they can be even more dangerous.

    Can't have trains with (short) leashes.

    • 1584 posts
    November 1, 2019 11:29 PM PDT
    Great ideas guys, I see some didn't like high level mobs in low level zones, all I can say is have fun in pantheon? I'm sure they already said like 2 years ago on a stream that there will be situations that are just like this. Plus they have been saying it will exsist in dungeons as well, so I don't really know what else to say about this.
    • 247 posts
    November 2, 2019 1:35 PM PDT
    Some of this was brought up in a way in the last developer round table q&a one example was there my be trigger they can place in zones that will open up a hole new place. One example they gave I guess is in game now is a big button or plate form that has to have a large number of people standing on it to get it to move or activate.. or open something.
    • 220 posts
    November 6, 2019 8:07 AM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    I've been thinking, and pondering on how to keep old zones, outposts, and our homelands alive once new expansions start coming in, now i know we shouldnt be thinking this far ahead just yet, but honestly lets be real any and all topics covering speculation, and possibilities have already been talked about, so i wanted to see what people wanted to think about this.

    When new expanions drops they are probably going to bring in new zones, dungeons, and maybe a few raid targets, and maybe even a new area people find favorable to call "home." which is where usually the old zones simply just start to be a lot less popular than they were before it dropped.  But, i am wondering what if you add to these old dungeons, could be an entirely different zone of the dungeon or simply just expand it(obviously just making a new zone would probably be the easiest approach, this would add value to the old places and have these zones still be full of life, at least in the outposts, and maybe homelands which are near them.

    I think simply put when you make new content, have some of the content leak into your old content so your old content doesnt dwindle and dry out and become ghost towns like almost every other mmo does, in one way or another, obviously it doesn't have to be only dungeons, it can be anywhere, I am just giving out a suggestion of where it could be to keep our original zones healthy.  Give us a reason why we would want to go back to these zones, and not to just leveling up alts and such, but our mains to revisit these areas to dive in deeper into them when they open up.

     

    VR did mention having area where low lv and high lv grind exp together so thats encouraging to know. So old zone will still be viable when new content release

    • 1584 posts
    November 6, 2019 8:26 AM PST
    Well yes they did say thay, but I was more or less wanting them to stay true to it when expansions dropped and not just when the initially game released, which is a big difference since they are talking about the game as is and not when they add to it.
    • 1247 posts
    November 7, 2019 6:45 PM PST

    @OP terrific ideas! I can see that being completely necessary to keep old content alive, even if it remains alive just to an extent. You address a problem with mainstream that has a simple fix really. I know that the two Classic expansions to the Classic game I played did some of this with great success, but the truth is it can be done much moreso. Pantheon can and should enhance that. Great ideas OP! 

    #communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels


    This post was edited by Syrif at November 8, 2019 7:04 PM PST
    • 470 posts
    November 8, 2019 7:49 AM PST

    I think there's some unexplored territory that could be explored to keep things fresh and encourage returning to old stomping grounds. And part of that solution comes by expanding on the Mentor system. While the basic mentor system is an essential tool to let us group with lowbie friends, it could be more. Maybe there's a faction or reward system tied to mentoring that allows you to earn currency through the task system that can be exchanged for things that can only be earned with that currency. Think of it as a mentoring guild of sorts. Maybe there's even certain dungeons that can only be accessed by a group that contains a mentoring member or quests through the Perception system only triggered by mentoring.

    There's a lot to play with in this area to encourage returning to lower zones once you've outgrown them. But as with most things, it'll come down to what fits The Vision tm and what resources are available with the devs.

    • 368 posts
    November 8, 2019 8:32 AM PST

    Simple... dont provide alternatives to what these older zones offer.

    For instance, EQ2 comes out with a new xpac annually. Each expansion comprises of a main overland/public zone that acts as a hub of sorts. With all the dungeons, instances, etc off of that zone for the expansion. Effectively negating the usefullness/purpose of the previous expansion and also effectively moving the population from one of these "hubs" to another xpac after xpac.

    Dont reinvent the wheel every expansion when it comes to the hub. Keep the hubs in the starting cities long term and people will always have a reason to come back. And when they do, they will pass through lower level content.

    • 95 posts
    November 8, 2019 9:42 AM PST

    Just include content in older zones when you release newer content. It can be as simple as a quest giver/quest chain in that older zone or a portal/entrance into a newly explored section. 

    Probably the best way is balancing the thematic nature of expansions with the tendency of having new continents or a region that the expansion content exists in. Spreading out that content in the existing world is best to keep it alive. It doesn't always make sense, but used appropriately it can give more options for story and diversity. The long lost kingdom you are focused on might want you to go explore a long lost colony that away from their main location they were exploring and left something important behind. This gives opportunities for lore to develop were that offshoot colony developed differently than the main kingdom giving more expansion options. 

    • 2419 posts
    November 8, 2019 9:59 AM PST

    Janthu said:

    Just include content in older zones when you release newer content. It can be as simple as a quest giver/quest chain in that older zone or a portal/entrance into a newly explored section.

    While I can see the point behind doing so, most often it jsut comes across as feelign very forced, artificial.  When EQ1 introduced the original epic quests, part of those quests were placed on already exisitng NPCs throughout the world.  Quite often it was having new items appearing in their loot tables.  By why would an NPC suddenly be dropping an item that it had never dropped before, for a quest that comes from a continent nobody had heard of, seen or explored before?  How did all these NPC suddenly become intwined into these quests?

    I know that SoE did that to force players into content which had become empty, unused for any number of reasons. But still it was very forced and most made little to no sense at all.

    If VR can avoid making this mistake, fine, but I'm not certain they they could avoid it.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at November 8, 2019 10:07 AM PST
    • 81 posts
    November 8, 2019 1:56 PM PST

    This is an excellent question and a huge obstacle for level based games.  Once creatures are "grey" they typically stop giving experince,  stop giving loot,  stop agroing and generally become something to ignore.  I, personally, hate this aspect of level based games and as such love that this question has been raised so that the devs can at least start thinking about it.  Nothing worse than ghost zones where nobody is at or worse 1 or 2 people are in.  As with other things,  I hope they implement more than one solution but here a a few things that might work,  especially in conjunction with others...

    1.  Place High level content in typically low level zones  (ie. the giant in west commons and spectres in oasis)

    2.  Low level mobs that can scale to your level be it upon engaging or clear those level 5 bugbears so the level 25 bugbear champions spawn.

    3.  Level restrictions (your level temporarily reduced to zone appropriate)

    4.  Something other than just mobs that brings you to the zone regardless of level,  be it a trading hub,  quest hub, high level zone entrance, social hub  or whatver

    5.  Mentor system that brings advanced chars to play with new chars

    6.  New stuff other than combat.  Diplomacy, gathering,  crafting, mini games,  etc.