Nubi said:Hey everyone!
I want to preface this concern with this: I understand that it is very likely that the people in the streams are likely either over-geared, over-leveled, the dungeon isn't tuned yet or some combination of this. I am more asking this question because especially after playing WoW classic again this is one of the biggest fears that haunt me-- and it haunts me because I really want to love pantheon and play it for decades (yes decades). I am only writing this post to put my fears out so the dev team will hopefully keep this in mind.
With the release of WoW Classic I got to experience first hand some of the things that I look forward to in Pantheon, even if WoW Classic is simply a small taste of what Pantheon will hopefully offer. With all the good that I got to experience (actual player interaction, a real player economy and many other things of that nature), there are also some negative things that I experienced that I hope pantheon will be able to avoid.
Instead of going over all the negatives and positives (I could spend quite a lot of time going over them) I'd like to highlight one thing in perticular-- and that's because it worries me the most especially after watching the streams.
The biggest issue I have with Classic, especially when compared to retail and other more modern mmo's, is the lack of real difficulty. During my journey to max level in classic I basically did no solo quests, I dungeon'd the whole way. While doing the dungeons I was fairly disapointed with a few things. *edit* I would like to clarify that by lack of difficulty I mean with the assumtion that everyone in the group has put in more than the required amount of time and resources in being prepared for the dungeon/encounter/raid and has the appropriate knowledge. I'm specifically referring to application of knowledge and class through reaction and decision making.
1) The biggest cause of wipes was people not being careful-- wipes caused by lack of perfomance almost never happened.
2) If the group was cautious-- every dungeon (and honestly raid) is either moderately difficult or extremely easy, no dungeon was actually challenging given that everyone had good gear and was careful. The only time it gets difficult is when extra adds get pulled or the group bites off more than they can chew.
3) Bosses are easier than trash packs because of reason #1
I guess I probably could have boiled all three of those things into one point but w/e.
How does this relate to Pantheon and it's streams?
While watching the streams, to me as a viewer there seems to be a lot of feigned excitment (like oh this guy hits really hard or something) when in reality the fights look incredibly easy. I mean they put all this effort into CCing mobs and off-tanking but it looks like they are doing it to put on a show. The mobs they face rarely hit hard enough to really matter. As someone who heals in MMOs mostly I'd be downright depressed if the encounters were that easy all in the name of 'slowing things down'.
I worry that from watching this that the dev team will balance encounters with a focus on how well they do in them and that they will not make it difficult enough for players who are more mid-core or hard-core. Especially with the limited abilities you're able to use at a given time.
It would be very nice if one of these streams they would showcase some content that is actually difficult. Perhaps even content that having someone in the group who has no idea what they are doing makes that content impossible.
Does anyone else share this fear? Anyone else worry that the game is being designed with 90% preperation and knowledge and only 10% skill/micro decisions? It is my hope that I will find plenty of challenge even with the adiquate preperation. It is also my hope that there will be content that I will never complete just because it's too difficult. I hope that not everyone will be able to do all the content.
/rant off
what constitutes difficulty? that is completely subjective for some people they will complete all content while others will give up on level ten lets hope they find a happy medium for all players that this game is catering too which might seem harder than the average mmo
Nephele said:I am going to semi-disagree with oneADseven and Dorotea here. I do not think that positional requirements (telegraphs, etc) are inherently bad - in moderation.
Yes, you are right Nephele. Positional requirements are important for this game. Strategy and thought should matter and should be used accordingly.
Aich said:I just got done playing WoW Clasic and I quit, deleted and gave away 120g in Ironforge.
IMO WoW is easy AF. Glad I got experince it but yeah no thanks. Waiting on p99 Green this Friday.
Yep, exactly (+ every synonym for exactly)! People do NOT want mainstream (yes, that means through and through). People are fed up with all these modern, easy AF mmorpg’s now. The big question of course is: ARE YOU LISTENING Visionary Realms? :)
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels
Syrif said:Aich said:I just got done playing WoW Clasic and I quit, deleted and gave away 120g in Ironforge.
IMO WoW is easy AF. Glad I got experince it but yeah no thanks. Waiting on p99 Green this Friday.
Yep, exactly (+ every synonym for exactly)! People do NOT want mainstream (yes, that means through and through). People are fed up with all these modern, easy AF mmorpg’s. The big question of course is: ARE YOU LISTENING Visionary Realms? :)
Listening? It's fundamental to their tenets.
Every time they talk about the game they explain their guiding principles, which can be summarised (as they did in the latest stream) as "cooperation, exploration, challenge".
In my experience and opinion, the exact 3 things that have become more and more lacking in 'modern' MMORPGs. They don't require any other players (which is crazy for an MMO), you are guided by the nose through everything and they are just too easy.
I would also add something pace related to the list, though it perhaps relates to challenge that in modern MMOs people tend to blast through like everything is a speed run. One of the best things about old-school MMORPGs is they were (relatively) *slow*. You had time to get to know the people you were grouping with even with text-only comms. Develop relationships, if only game-related. Even do a bit of fun role-playing or at least in-character stuff to enhance the immersion. Can't really do that when the content is designed be experienced like a roller-coaster ride or is so easy that people barely need to strategise or be careful never mind talk in the occasional (short) gaps between encounters.
You and I have disagreed on detail, but we agree on the overall vision. MMORPGs have become more and more shallow since EQ and we would like that depth back.
The thing that has me most excited for Pantheon is that VR make the right comments again and again in regard to what I think makes a good (old school) MMORPG.
@Disposalist You have had some decent ideas, but others have disagreed too. I like the dog. :)
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels
I played classic for the first time recently. I jumped on that addiction for a week, It's fun but I too found it too easy and didn't return. I think wow works heavily on the "just one more" mindset, a completionist mindset. It's really easy to just think, I've done this before in other games and see no point in doing it again. MMOs need more than just that. It's not right to just make an MMO difficult. I don't want pantheon to be difficult, I want feigned difficulty. Make it exciting. Most of the games I've enjoyed are not difficult. I believed them to be challenging but after understanding the challenge, it's mostly all tricks and feigned excitement to fool you into thinking it's harder than it actually is.
It's necessary for an MMORPG to be easy most of the time. Having those rare moments of extreme risk makes MMOs exciting and difficult. Trying to design difficulty unto the core game loop is a big no-no. Make it exciting.
Doford said:I played classic for the first time recently. I jumped on that addiction for a week, It's fun but I too found it too easy and didn't return. I think wow works heavily on the "just one more" mindset, a completionist mindset. It's really easy to just think, I've done this before in other games and see no point in doing it again. MMOs need more than just that. It's not right to just make an MMO difficult. I don't want pantheon to be difficult, I want feigned difficulty. Make it exciting. Most of the games I've enjoyed are not difficult. I believed them to be challenging but after understanding the challenge, it's mostly all tricks and feigned excitement to fool you into thinking it's harder than it actually is.
It's necessary for an MMORPG to be easy most of the time. Having those rare moments of extreme risk makes MMOs exciting and difficult. Trying to design difficulty unto the core game loop is a big no-no. Make it exciting.
I disagree. I don't think the game should be easy. The excitement you speak of is that very concept of "I might die here" and I feel that should be ever present. If I wanted an easy MMO I'd just pick one of the multitude of existing ones.
Interesting feedback. That is also what I’ve gathered from others. Classic WoW is too easy, boring, and just terrible (I’ve heard pretty awful things about Blizzard too). I would hope Classic WoW is by no means a guideline for Pantheon. I imagine Pantheon will be vastly different. Will be interesting to see what the future holds.
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels
Aarpoch said:I disagree. I don't think the game should be easy. The excitement you speak of is that very concept of "I might die here" and I feel that should be ever present. If I wanted an easy MMO I'd just pick one of the multitude of existing ones.
You can die in most places in Classic Wow. Pull too many mobs and you can die. It's thought of a hard to some players. I don't find it exciting. I want to opportunity for risk, so it's exciting and things can go wrong, but that risk is built into the game. It's not made to be difficult. If every player in a group plays their role properly, that game would be easy, even if for a lot of players it's considered difficult. It shouldn't be how well players play, the game should be exciting because you can't win all the time. The fun of MMORPGs should be the role-playing. Good things happen, bad things happen, I'm dealt a role I have to contend with because that's exciting, not some mystical skill I think I have over the difficulty of the game.
The problem with WoW classic is, the original game was balanced around Patch 1.1. At this early stage it was way harder than now. WoW Classic starts with Patch 1.12 and all classes and many items were overhauled and got various improvements.
Another thing that has been seen in WoW Classic and could be not so funny in Pantheon: WoW Classic is full even with layering. There are situations that dozens of players are waiting for one named mob. There were queues. I'm really curious how VR will solve this problem without instancing and layering.
Greetings
Nanfoodle said: Didn't read much of the OP but a few lines in I had to respond. If you think WoW classic is an answer to the hole Pantheon is filling, Your missing the boat here. WoW was the start of the mess MMOs have turned into. Pantheon is 100% different animal.
Thank you for pointing that out!
All these hype about classic wow and forgot that the reason we're in this mess is because of wow.
I've only played wow classic recently. I thought wow classic did a good job of structuring its zones and making a world to be explored in a very casual way. Better than eq2 during its release. In many ways better than EQ.
I think from an exploration point of view stuff and be learned from wow.
BamBam said: I think exploration should be a rewarding thing to do and key word for it should be mystery. You want to go beyond the hill to look whats on the other side. You should not have to wait untill you get quest for a specific area and let that deside for you like wow do. It removes the exploration and mystery compleatly that was a constant thing in back in EQ, witch is one of the resons why, many players think so highly of EQ still.
That is an awesome way of visualizing it BamBam. The exploration and mystery are really lagging from games today. Here’s to hoping we see this in Pantheon. The large zones are sounding like they will be fun. :)
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels