Forums » Crafting

Crafter's Roundtable: Profession Differences

    • 1435 posts
    May 12, 2019 4:37 PM PDT

    Welcome to another Crafter's Roundtable discussion, brought to you by Pantheon Crafters. This time, our question is deceptively simple.

    Should the mechanics of crafting work exactly the same for every profession, or should there be differences? If there are differences between the professions, how big should those differences be?

    As an example and to help with understanding the question, consider the blacksmith vs. the provisioner. Should someone who works up blacksmith intrinsically understand how to be a provisioner, or should crafting as a provisioner be almost a completely different system from crafting as a blacksmith?

    Let us know your thoughts!

    (Note from Nephele: For the summer, we're switching back to the older roundtable format where we just post the questions directly, rather than gathering Pantheon Crafters staff comments first and posting it all together. We hope everyone will still take time to voice their thoughts in each roundtable that we post however!)

     

    • 467 posts
    May 12, 2019 4:53 PM PDT

    The question seems difficult to me. I could go either way but am searching for a method to achieve both. Can they be different mini-games that operate on the same mechanic for success/failuire? I just thought of the EQ2 crafting system. Fayberry Fizzlepop anyone?


    This post was edited by Tigersin at May 12, 2019 4:54 PM PDT
    • 152 posts
    May 13, 2019 1:57 AM PDT

    Back in EQ1, it was as simple as throwing the individual ingredients in a container and hitting combine, getting a succes or failure. This was not only part of the reason i had RSI, but it was also very very repetative and really a hassle, not to mention it didn't require much intellect either.

    EQ2 threw in a little minigame, to increase durability, but the same principle applied, it was the same across all tradeskills. Reactively hitting buttons to counter effects or increase progress / durability.

    Aion was even 'worse', as you would just queue up the amount of combines you wanted to do and go AFK and watch a movie or something similar, no immersion what so ever.

     

    I think that tradeskills, like classes, should feel different. Each should have their own playstyle so that you can pick a tradeskill based on what you like to 'play'. If you have multiple tradeskills, each should be different so you can actually keep focus, which you might need in certain situations. The how is really where i'm boggled, as i have no clue. But i know in real life, i know how to cook, i know how to do woodworking, i do not know how to weld or make jewelery. they require different techniques and tools, and even within the same tools you have different purposes.

    • 1714 posts
    May 13, 2019 9:46 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    Should the mechanics of crafting work exactly the same for every profession, or should there be differences? If there are differences between the professions, how big should those differences be?

    Fundamentally, there really is no difference in the tradeskills. You are taking one or more things, putting them into some crafting station/device, and combining them to make something different or new.  What is different is the materials/ingredients, the tool(s) and the crafting station/device.  Beyond that I do not think there needs to be anything different beyond this.  We're not dealing with real world requirements of actual skill, hand/eye coordination, fine motor skills, etc.  Stuff goes into box and we click a button.

    All that said, even with the fundamentals being the same, where the professions can differ is in the recipies, from the simple to the very complex.  Crafting a final item should be a multi-step process where you start with raw resources that are refined, combined with other first-stage refined items to create sub-items that are then further combined to create the final product.  No final product should ever be the result of a single step.  Even making a simple loaf of bread should need multiple combines.  To make a sandwich from that bread needs additional sub-items each of which is the result of at least 2 steps.  It is those steps that differentiates one profession from another.

    • 350 posts
    May 13, 2019 12:09 PM PDT

    I've discussed this on the Pantheon Crafters forum quite extensively already. Here's the link for those interested to read it. 

    https://www.pantheoncrafters.com/threads/gathering-ideas-on-what-mini-game-puzzles-should-look-and-feel-like.205/#post-3185

    The short version.. 

    Please dev's take the time for crafters to feel unique. 

    Each craft should be seen as unique as the adventure classes. 

    You don't learn to forge a breastplate on an anvil by reading in a cookbook. 

    Take your time to look at how we learn trades in real life, see how they differ and find ways to bring this to the players/crafters in your game (which is still in development, so there is still time).

    I would be gutted to see a one for all crafting style, if they have spent so much time creating the different adventure classes and their unique approaches and playstyles. 

    There are already plenty of mini games, short games and other mmo's out there that offer different ideas on how it can possibly be. Keep an open mind, even during the design phase of crafting.

    • 979 posts
    May 15, 2019 8:10 AM PDT

    Full disclosure, I am a crafting enthusiast and have yet to find a game that takes crafting all the way to a legitimate play style.

    To me, for crafting to be a legitimate play style then the crafting processes and progression needs to be nearly as interactive, difficult, and time consuming as the adventuring play style.

    To that end I would like to see each crafting class have 3-10 mini games that represent one or another process that is used in that craft (there may be some mini games that are used by more than one crafting class).  The abilities one uses in these mini-games are learned from trainers, books, quests and maybe even chance encounters.  Those abilities also must be leveled and the appropriate tools to use those abilities to their maximum output.

    The output of the mini-games would be determined by the raw materials you use, the order you use your abilities and the results of your skill checks.  The player does not simple input materials and get a finish item as an output, might as well just have crafting NPCs for that.  The player does not even have a step by step guided UI.  Instead players get to craft by choosing how to reach a targeted endpoint which may have multiple paths but not exactly the same outcome.

    As Barin999 indicated we have been talking over different minigame ideas for each crafting discipline.

    I will attempt to give an example to better illustrate my idea.

    Smithing Processes: Smelting, Casting, Forging, Joining, Finishing

    Forging Process Abilities:  Pump billows, heat metal, thin (widen, lengthen or both), weld, fuller, cut, punch, bend, round.

    Each abilities will have a series of choices that consume crafting stamina, consumable secondary materials and affect the quality of the output result as well as a state change to the input object. 

    A walk through process for creating a dagger blade:

    1: Pump billows until the forge is at 700C

    2: Place a 10 lbs bar in the forge.

    3: Remove bar from forge when it reaches 700C, place on anvil and use Cut to split off a 1lbs section.

    4: Place 9lbs bar on crafting table (active inventory for the crafting process)

    5: Return the 1lbs section to the forge until the metal is back to 700C.

    6: Move the metal to the anvil and use the thin(lengthen) ability.  A total of 5 thin(lengthen) processes will need to be completed and the metal will need to be reheated after the time it takes to do 2 processes.

    7: After the right length the blade can be fullered to an edge.  The each edge will require 2 round of fullering to put an edge on the dagger and a 5th for the point.  Again reheating will be required.

     

    At this point the small double edged blade will be completed.  A hilt and pommel will also need to be made through casting or forging.  The grip will either need to be cast, carved or wrapped during the joining process and the blade will need to be polished and sharpened in the finishing process.

    Crafting stamina will need to regenerate over time so that the pacing of crafting will be a function of your regeneration rate and which abilities you use.  Some abilities will be effective but consume a lot of stamina while others will be less effective but have a higher stamina efficiency.  A wise and knowledgeable crafter with the right tools will know which abilities in the right order to maximize the quality of the output and the overall production output.

    There may be some simplification that can be done and some crafts will be less process driven than smithing is and therefor will be harder to create mini games of equal detail.  Crafting difficulty of this level will validate having the best items in the game being crafted (assuming rare drop mob ingredients).  Crafting of this difficulty will also make it a lot less prevalent and therefor more valued.