Given the general problems with money sinks, it should probably be bought/crafted rather than being unlimited. I guess this is perhaps a little unfair on certain classes, but then money sinks are always likely to have an element of unfairness for somebody. To balance up the requirement for limited ammo, maybe ranged weapons can be made so they don't degrade whilst melee weapons do degrade and require maintenance. Purely as a concept, I personally don't like the idea of unlimited ammo.
Ammo should not be unlimited IMO, as that would go against the "plan ahead" and resource management idea of Pantheon.
Crafting is the best way to make ammo available I think. This worked quite well in EQ, with a fair amount of customizability and a low skill required to start making your own ammo. I wouldn't mind to see a similar system for Pantheon. Maybe with an easier way to make magic arrows (iirc these were very costly to craft in EQ).
It also makes sense to have magic ways to obtain "endless" ammo (summoner conjuring arrows, or a magic quiver that can do so). But these should be either class limited (like for the summoner), or high end gear.
Having some basic arrows on NPC vendors wouldn't hurt either. But these should really be poor quality to encourage players to hunt for better ammo.
buy and make.
Summoned from friends.
but to keep it interesting, have easy to make ammo with unique qualities that is specific to certain areas or dungeons. Balanced with the ammo bag which can hold unlimited types and amounts but is subject to "inventory micro-management" and takes up a bag space.
The easy to make unique ammo can also be balanced by being alot weaker than store bought in damage, but better than store bought in effect.
Unique ammo fires more and faster than store bought. So, the cat-o-ninetails fletched arrows in the swamp dungeon do 2 damage instead of 20 from store bought normal arrows, but they have a bog effect snare if 10 hit. Cat-o-ninetails arrows fire 3X as fast as store bought arrows but supplies are only fletchable in that dungeon or outside area. Or the crystal chips do less damage than store bought shirukens, but have a paralytic effect if 20 hit, and monks can throw 8 with one hand at a time, but the monk has to pound the crystals into chips or crack crystals with their staff to get chips in a certain area.
store bought is better than summoned in damage. summoned fire slightly faster. both have no effect.
Store bought ammo can be lightly crafted to have a bonus effect.
crafted ammo would be the best
As i have played ranger in eq1 and similar in eq2, i believe arrows should never be unlimited (Endless Quiver AA killed that). You should however be able to carry many or be able to craft on the spot and carry resources with you to make them there. (1 combine yields 100 etc.)
There is nothing more annoying than having to leave a group simply to get arrows as a ranger. Summoned (from item or summoner) is a possible fix, but should never be better than crafted ones, simply because they are of near unlimited supply. If summoned, they should also be no zone or temporary of some kind.
Unique arrows, like magical ones with snare effects and the likes, should be possible. They should yield a lot (1000 per combine) if they are damage based. if they are utility based (snare, root etc.) they should yield less (20) so that you are not inclined to use them as your main ammo type but only situational.
If these things are taken into consideration, it would probably also be nice to have a way to change the arrows on the fly, without having to open your inventory. Like with a quick spell or toggle button of some sort.
Kilsin said:Hot Topic - Ammo in ranged weapons, should you have to buy it, make it (crafting or class ability/skill) or should it be unlimited once you obtain it? #MMORPG #communitymatters
what's with the reusing topics? am I missing something?
but if we do play this game then:
you will have to buy ammo or create it, where the top tier ammo is from reputation faction and crafting.
normal store will not have the best ammo.
it should not, and i repeat; should not be unlimited. i dont care whether the ammo is put only in quiver or in general inventory.
there should be different types of ammo for example:
regular ammo (standard).
armor piercing ammo (ignore some armor rating but cannot crit, very good against high armored targets, or uncrittable targets like undead, constructs, elementals etc)
flaming arrows (the damage type is fire, or add some ammount of fire damage on top on regular damage depend on ruleset)
poison arrow (low damage, damage type is posion, have chance to induce weakness and reduce healing recieved by %)
One thing to add: For crafted ammo, the costs have to be balanced very carefully. Low end ammo (which you might use to pull for example) was cheap to make. Better ammo costed a lot more. I would like to avoid the situation where a high end ranger "requires" super expensive ammo just to be competitive. So yeah, making high quality ammo should cost you, but not an arm and a leg :)
Also, on the topic of summoned arrows etc: I agree that they should not be "the best". Obviously. However, also don't make them so bad that they become irrelevant. In EQ, a lot of summoned items became irrelevant because everything you could buy or make was simply superior. That would rob the summoner of some of their utility.
I think Rangers should only be able to Craft it themselves(with the execption of summoning it temporaily with a summoner from like in EQ with mage). Rangers should have a ranger only ability to fletch their own arrows so it is up to them to maintain and manage their own arrows. I think the arrows should NOT take up any inventory slots but instead have an additional Quiver bag that holds only arrows. Again, it will be up to them to maintain their own ammunition before grouping, questing, or raiding.
Unlimited will break rangers in solo having no down time, like casters with mana. Even with buying ammo and crafting it the only down time is when you run out of ammo, making kiting a lot more potent than mana casters who run out of mana after some time. Sooooo I dunno, but definelty not unlimited ammo.
Buy it or make it or get it as drops - the latter including realtively small quantities of more unusual arrows (to keep things simple I use arrows to mean any thrown or shot ammunition - I am well aware that crossbows use bolts). The latter could include magical arrows that do extra damage either in general or to certain types of enemies (flaming enemies may not especially like arrows that generate cold or turn into a pail of water when they hit).Purchases from NPCs should be mostly normal arrows but crafters should be able to make special arrows particularly at higher level or with more expensive materials. Higher craft level not adventure level.
A ranged class should be able to make arrows both for itself and to sell - that should be one of the class advantages it gets.
I see no particular logic behind summoned arrows and if it was up to me there would be no such thing.
As usual I opt for a realistic world subject to the basic high fantasy parameters underlying it. When you run out of arrows they are gone and you cannot shoot them so carry enough. Not a huge issue if you can make your own and usually recover arrows from the bodies of enemies. And if as suggested, arrows are a common drop - which they should be from any enemy that uses missile weapons.
Yes craft your own ammo. This goes for the rogue alchemical abilites too. With the systems you are designing, Perception system, Atmospheres and colored Magic, you better.
Don't leave the player out of the emersiveness of creating and adding new effects. Have us craft it all, otherwise don't even bother launching...lol. I mean your putting off beta until 2020, might as well do it right.
I fully support requiring ammo AND reagents. "Infinite" ammo has really only become normal in modern games where arcade style combat is used. I'd rather bow using classes become more powerful, but still require ammo, than to have unlimited ammo and have bowing be used all the time.
However, I see a bow as an accessory and a tool used for specific encounters. It should not be an exclusive weapon, but rather one used in certain situations to deal considerable damage to certain types of armored enemies. I think designing the game to take advantage of the bow in certain situations would make more meaningful combat.
Reagents for powerful spells and possibly some abilities should also be a thing, which also falls into this consumable category discussion. Create more dynamic gameplay by making the really good stuff be something you can use periodically if equipped and prepared correctly, which is something Brad really pushes for. What better way to follow this game tenants having players plan out their resources?
Hot Topic - Ammo in ranged weapons, should you have to buy it, make it (crafting or class ability/skill) or should it be unlimited once you obtain it? #MMORPG #communitymatters
One has to ask yourself is consumable ammo consistent with the rest of Pantheon game design? Everquest having consumable ammo is not sufficient precedence to assume that consumable ammo fits with the rest of Pantheon game design.
Consumable ammo is material resource management and not Class resource management. Will classes other than Rangers then require material resource management in addition to Class resource management? If yes then it is acceptable, if no then it does not fit with the rest of the Pantheon game design. If consumable ammo is considered compelling then what similarly compelling material resource management will be added to other classes? Spell components are an easy first step as are poisons and traps for Rogues.
How does material resource management figure into inventory management? Slot based inventories, in my opinion, are terrible and over simplified artifacts of technological restrictions of the early days of PC gaming. An inventory system based on a combination of both Mass and Volume is much more friendly to many small objects like ammo, spell components, armor and weapon augments and crafting materials and results. If Pantheon adopts a Volume based inventory system then there is room for material resource management within the primary inventory system.
If the Pantheon inventory system remains slot based then material resource manages, especially if restricted to only one or two classes, is inappropriate and inconsistent with the rest of the game design. It would significantly restrict the inventory capacity of classes that require it over those that do not. Material resource management would need to operate from a secondary inventory systems designed specifically for it in addition to the standard inventory system. Once you have created a secondary inventory system the value added of material resource management decreases from something tactical to something that is repetitive maintenance which is often considered a nuisance without any real compelling reason to have it in the game.
Additionally consumable resource management like consumable ammo fits better with a game where all resources are tracked and managed. This would be systems like item decay, specific material components and many consumable goods otherwise hand waved.
A middle ground would be introducing consumable item buffs with a duration rather than quantity. For ranged weapons this could be “Ammo” for melee weapons they could be sharpening stones, poisons or other coatings, for spells these could either be runes applied to spell casting implements or short term, non-stackable, spell amplifiers that add effects to spells. All classes could have one form or another consumable tool buff but the base abilities would still function without the buffs. The trade skills are a natural source for these optional buff consumables, I would go so far as to say they should be the only source for them to help facilitate greater adventurer-crafter interactions.
Ideally each class would be able to use consumable items from multiple different crafting classes so that specific adventuring classes do not have default crafting classes. These consumables could go hand in hand with both the vertical and horizontal progression within Pantheon.
*Edit* P.S. It would be nice if a week after one of these question posts someone VR also posts a general internal thought on the subject. It would go a long way to help us know general directions and opinions if not specific details *end edit*
Absolutely we should have to make it or buy it. The best should be crafted, but one can purchase generic ammo in a pinch.
As for balance concerns. Every class should have some sort of crafting associated with it instead of removing the need for ammo.
Bring back Runes and Words as well!!
As i had stated on the other topic i am 100% behind having consumable ammo. I want to see an expandable quiver/belt pouch option so you can increase your carry capacity. I would like to see a high level skill that either reclaims a shot ammo item or uses a magic version of your ammo that utilizes mana or resource. I do not want to see endless quiver where you only need 1 ammo item and its super overpowered and you destroy everything with headshot.
As an early eq1 monk i tried to keep my wt as low as possible. So any sort of wt reduction belt pouch or summon throwing item was priceless to me since i usually just needed a low dmg item to get the mobs attention, but i needed to not run out ever. If there are plans to add in a skill like throw stone then i probably won't even use ammo slot unless its for stats.
Not unlimited, for sure. I actually enjoyed fletching in EQ, and it allowed for some customization. Different shafts, points and feathers and the different combinations made different arrows. For rangers, arrows are like spell reagents for casters. They aren't 100% dependent on them, but do use them a good bit. Stacking to 500 or whatever wouldn't be bad, and they shouldn't have a huge amount of weight. I'm assuming that other classes will also use them for pulling, so a stack or two in your bag should be plenty to do that. Making them unlimited removes part of the thought you need to put in preparing for your gaming time. Food? Check. Drink? Check. Potions? Check. Poisons? Check. Arrows, throwing knives, rotten tomatoes? Check.
I really like the idea of fletching, as a class skill and a tradeskill. If you really wanted to push the class interdependency, give each class a way to imbue arrows.
cleric - +damage to unholy types druid - chance to root/snare dire lord - chance to steal health enchanter - chance to drain/steal mana (or whatever resource)
monk - chance to increase momentum ranger - chance to reduce armor vs ranged attacks rogue - chance to apply poison dot summoner - small chance to summon additional arrows that strike
paladin - chance to stun shaman - chance to slow warrior - reduces hate wizard - chance to inflict spell damage (random school of magic)
This concept could also apply to different trades (using general examples):
blacksmith - hardened arrow heads (ignores X% of target armor) tailor - groomed plumes (feathers specially treated, harder to dodge) carpenter - jagged shafts (splinters add a bleed effect)
alchemist - flammable fletching (increases fire damage inflicted) jeweler - diamond dust (adds damage against stone/golem types)
Just general thoughts. Would take some work, but could be really fun for more classes than just the ranger.
If the choice is between unlimited or bags filled with ammo, it doesn't really matter. Neither has any real effect on the encounters.
Now if you limit the ammo a player can use in a given fight without having to rest and then replenish that ammo, then it doesn't really matter if they buy it or summon it.
I was thinking about this from the other thread. You can have purchased, crafted, dropped ammo (even summoned ammo), BUT... limit the amount that can be stored in the quiver (ammo pouch) to an ammount that would be balanced to what should be usable within a given combat encounter. That way, the player can run out in combat and is forced to rest to get more ammo.
You could if you must even have it as simple as not allowing the ammo pouch to be accessed while the player is on the aggro list of the NPC. This way, they could have an additional larger store of ammo in a sack, but in combat it would be too difficult for them to access it and add more ammo to their ammo pouch. Resting or being put out of combat would allow them to replenish ammo.
This would create a nice balance in play for the ranged class, putting in a limiting element in play and it would also give pros/cons to swapping into melee (ie making it so the class isn't entirely a ranged focus and players must balance their melee with their ranged).
Trasak said:Hot Topic - Ammo in ranged weapons, should you have to buy it, make it (crafting or class ability/skill) or should it be unlimited once you obtain it? #MMORPG #communitymatters
One has to ask yourself is consumable ammo consistent with the rest of Pantheon game design? Everquest having consumable ammo is not sufficient precedence to assume that consumable ammo fits with the rest of Pantheon game design.
Consumable ammo is material resource management and not Class resource management. Will classes other than Rangers then require material resource management in addition to Class resource management? If yes then it is acceptable, if no then it does not fit with the rest of the Pantheon game design. If consumable ammo is considered compelling then what similarly compelling material resource management will be added to other classes? Spell components are an easy first step as are poisons and traps for Rogues.
How does material resource management figure into inventory management? Slot based inventories, in my opinion, are terrible and over simplified artifacts of technological restrictions of the early days of PC gaming. An inventory system based on a combination of both Mass and Volume is much more friendly to many small objects like ammo, spell components, armor and weapon augments and crafting materials and results. If Pantheon adopts a Volume based inventory system then there is room for material resource management within the primary inventory system.
If the Pantheon inventory system remains slot based then material resource manages, especially if restricted to only one or two classes, is inappropriate and inconsistent with the rest of the game design. It would significantly restrict the inventory capacity of classes that require it over those that do not. Material resource management would need to operate from a secondary inventory systems designed specifically for it in addition to the standard inventory system. Once you have created a secondary inventory system the value added of material resource management decreases from something tactical to something that is repetitive maintenance which is often considered a nuisance without any real compelling reason to have it in the game.
Additionally consumable resource management like consumable ammo fits better with a game where all resources are tracked and managed. This would be systems like item decay, specific material components and many consumable goods otherwise hand waved.
A middle ground would be introducing consumable item buffs with a duration rather than quantity. For ranged weapons this could be “Ammo” for melee weapons they could be sharpening stones, poisons or other coatings, for spells these could either be runes applied to spell casting implements or short term, non-stackable, spell amplifiers that add effects to spells. All classes could have one form or another consumable tool buff but the base abilities would still function without the buffs. The trade skills are a natural source for these optional buff consumables, I would go so far as to say they should be the only source for them to help facilitate greater adventurer-crafter interactions.
Ideally each class would be able to use consumable items from multiple different crafting classes so that specific adventuring classes do not have default crafting classes. These consumables could go hand in hand with both the vertical and horizontal progression within Pantheon.
*Edit* P.S. It would be nice if a week after one of these question posts someone VR also posts a general internal thought on the subject. It would go a long way to help us know general directions and opinions if not specific details *end edit*
I have to agree. There has to be balance and not done just cause it can be.
Having ammo and not having ammo should be in line with the core philosophies and direction of the game. Having ammo as a resource can be conducive to deeper and more meaningful gameplay by being another variable withen a players control that can affect how well they do. But it shouldn't stop at being just ammo, having to periodically repair gear with repair kits, and needing components to cast spells are all things that if implemented well can add to the game in meaningful ways while also giving crafters a constant demand and pulling work away from actions that are more contributing to gear inflation and currency inflation. But again implementing such systems shouldn't just be a chore, but also meaningful variables that a player can control to better themselves. High quality crafted repair kits might apply different different durational buffs to gear when used to repair. Higher grade components might modify and change a spells attributes such as duration, size of ae or even damage types. Ammo can come in different damage types and even possibly magical ammo could be used for even more opportunities.
That being said if ammo is just used for the sake of it being there, then it shouldn't be there. Making a resource sink that primarily targets only one class without giving that class a significant advantage usually ends with a class that is underplayed and thus kind of a waste of not only player time but developer time. For example I've been playing eq2 recently on their new progression server and am playing a ranger, I can't get my rerolled character to max fast enough. The class is prohibitively expensive because of the cost of good crafted ammo and the time it takes to gather materials and craft them. While they are good damage dealers, they don't bring alot to the raid team outside of that damage and there are other classes that do just as much and even more while bringing alot more utility. Because of the lack of the utility of the 3 seperate raids raidleaders in the very casual guild I'm in, they will only allow a ranger to take a fill spot. If there is literally any other class that wants to join in that raid the ranger is asked to go. I've talked to others in other guilds and it's generally the same most places. So its class that is by far the most expensive class to play, its one of the least demanded classes because even being expensive it brings no significant advantage to end game content. From a gameplay experiance you should never want your players to feel this way about the class they chose.
If a player has to spend extra time and work because of their class mechanics over the next class they should feel rewarded for that extra work and effort. If they spend that time/effort and end up being just comparable to the next class whom spends way less time then they won't continue to want to play that class and it won't be a rewarding experiance for that player. Especially in a game where alot of time and effort and supposed difficulty is needed to progress into the endgame. But on the flip side it starts having a pay to win feel if a ranger class outperforms other classes because of his high grade ammo.
So to recap I believe if a resource like ammo is used, it should be used in conjuction with other systems that provide a costs/benefits for adventuring such as component use for spells and durability loss of gear. If done right these all can provide a better and more rewarding experiance by giveing decisions to the player and another variable within their control. If done poorly they at best they are unnecessary burdon upon players that detracts from his gameplay experiance, and at worst they are class breaking mechanics that can drive away players whom feel cheated because their character whom they spend 100s of hours on falls behind other classes with much less investment.
Cost based factors are not good obstacles. They are repeatedly shown to fail due to the volatility of the game economies out pacing the cost of the games internal economic product. Now some might say that then that cost should be tied to the market, but then keep in mind the market is volatile and does not follow a structred balance of cost increases. This is why player markets become gimmicks where you have to "play the market game" just to keep up as earning money within the games system is quickly outpaced and only gimmicks provide return.
All it takes is one plat dupe and the system goes out of whack, and make no mistake there WILL be plat dupes as there are RMT companies whose main goal is to enter a game and find as many exploits as possible to gain advantage in this. It is not a matter of "if", but when. So... tying any obstacle to money is futile and likely to be constantly imblanced if it is sought.
The best approach is to keep the player economy and adventure portion of the game segregated. Tying them together will wreak havoc. The player should be able to gain everything they need and excel in the world without ever being involved in the player trade markets.
So if balance is sought in ammo, it has to be done in other ways where player trade, RMT, etc.. can no imbalance of invalidate it.
Trasak said:*Edit* P.S. It would be nice if a week after one of these question posts someone VR also posts a general internal thought on the subject. It would go a long way to help us know general directions and opinions if not specific details *end edit*
Quoted just to draw attention to this ^
AS for creating systems that forces archers to rest during combat to make arrows while they already have a seperate resource to manage isn't very fun either, nor realistic... The same with casters, there should be mechanics implace to restore mana that aren't dependant on just plopping your butt on the ground and doing nothing. Not only is that not fun gameplay, but any enemy above animal level intelligence should instantly aggro to try to kill off a resting and defenceless caster before they could recoup. I like the description of the wizard for example of having burn style fire spells that dump alot of mana but arcane abilities that help restore it. Other classes can have similar mechanics that allow them to get back mana such as entering the mellee or other similar things. You can keep the resource meaningfull and challenging without forcing the player to stop playing the game for a minute.
Belzavior said:AS for creating systems that forces archers to rest during combat to make arrows while they already have a seperate resource to manage isn't very fun either, nor realistic... The same with casters, there should be mechanics implace to restore mana that aren't dependant on just plopping your butt on the ground and doing nothing. Not only is that not fun gameplay, but any enemy above animal level intelligence should instantly aggro to try to kill off a resting and defenceless caster before they could recoup. I like the description of the wizard for example of having burn style fire spells that dump alot of mana but arcane abilities that help restore it. Other classes can have similar mechanics that allow them to get back mana such as entering the mellee or other similar things. You can keep the resource meaningfull and challenging without forcing the player to stop playing the game for a minute.
It isn't very fun to lose, or to die and recover your corpse, or to fail, yet this is the basis to which obstacles provide. You aren't supposed to like everything in the game, that is not the point so arguments based on subjective establish of what "fun" is , isn't a valid objection due to the fact that what you find fun, what I find fun is entirely based on the individual. Just to give you an understanding, I think these restrictions, medding, having limitations in combat produce decision situations that result in very interesting encounters which often can be very entertaining. So the subjective argument is not very useful here.
As for realism, this is entirely realistic if that is your argument. How many arrows can a quiver hold realistically? You are going to run out, you can not carry truck loads of arrows. Realistically there is a limitation here, so realism is not a valid argument against this idea because it is more realistic that there is a limited amount of ammo during a fight and it is entirely realistic that the Ranger has to go recover their arrows after the fight, or repair/make new ones.
As for resting, that is the entire point. You can not be aware at all times. From the days of pen and paper 'resting" meant exactly that, a situation where you rested and there were chances for an encounter, often of which it could be something as simple as a bear showing up in camp.
The idea that the brave adventures have infinite ammo, don't have to rest and are always on the go in perfect defense is not a progression of gaming, or the RPG systems of old, it is the modern day translation of gaming to appeal to convience of those who don't know anything about games and simply want to have "fun", because gaming isn't fun, being entertained is.