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Crafter's Roundtable: Crafting, Atmospheres, and Artifacts

    • 1522 posts
    March 22, 2019 11:22 AM PDT

    It's time once again for a Crafter's Roundtable, where we ask a crafting-related question designed to get the Pantheon Community talking! For those who haven't seen these before, Crafter's Roundtable threads are something that the stafff at Pantheon Crafters puts together on a regular basis.  We ask questions that are intended to get the community talking, and help VR see what we'd like for crafting in Pantheon.  To help kick things off, we've asked some of the Pantheon Crafters staff to submit their opinions on the topic ahead of time.

    The Question:

    In the February newsletter we learned a bit more about how VR envisions Atmospheres working, and how artifacts might be used to help players function within an atmosphere. It's important to note that while some atmospheres, like Gloom, seem centered on affecting players' stats, others, like Frenetic Floor, seem like they will apply effects that change the way movement or combat works entirely. With all of that in mind, how do you feel that crafting should work with this system? Should crafters be able to make items and equipment that can function like lesser version of artifacts? What about consumables to help mitigate the effects of Atmospheres? Or, should this solely be the province of Artifacts that people have to obtain through adventuring?


    Here's what our commentators had to say on the topic. Give it a read, and then tell us your own thoughts in a reply!

    Trasak said:

    To some degree I hope that the effect of artifacts are only a partial counter to the atmosphere and climate. The atmosphere system is so interesting to me that I feel it would be a shame to negate it once you get your hands on the right McGuffin. On top of that having a chunk of your limited slot inventory filled with your environmental artifacts is a waste of multiple systems. Rather than have artifacts be an always on object I think they would operate better as a special form of consumable that need to be saved for the right moment.

    Crafting I think has a great opportunity to be the source of both the consumable artifacts and partial resistances added to dropped or crafted items. Again not to the point of negating the effects of environment entirely but to close the gap between standard power levels and the modified environmental effect. (Yes this could include attaching a small spring powered cooling fan to the back of a breastplate to counter the effects of extreme heat.)


    Khaleesi said:

    From the twitch stream showing us the first reveal of an atmosphere, I think that the atmospheres will always pose a significant struggle. I'm stoked for craftswomen and craftsmen to be able to provide some assistance for these zones ... but I'm also really looking forward (to the struggle?) of working on figuring out how to get our party successfully through.

    Artifacts, I'll assume, will be epic, heroic, rare things that help with an individual area - and if more common, may be more like a "key" to get through into an otherwise inaccessible space. The devs have provided this concept of more dangerous / high level / locked areas being so close, but so far away - like an otherwise un-climbable area right near a starting city. I'd wager atmospheres would be one mechanism by which they would plan this type of situation.

    If we are able to craft items with the utility of an artifact, I'd expect it would be a consumable item that may or may not work as well.


    Nephele said:

    This is a hard question for me to really answer, because I think that the answer actually depends on the atmosphere in question and how often you see it in the game. For example, if you only see Gloom happening in certain very special locations, it doesn't make sense to me that crafters should be able to make items that help players in those areas. That's generally because the value of the Bone-woven Veil is tied to those very few locations where it's actually needed. If there's a crafted alternative, even if that crafted alternative is less effective, it reduces the value of the actual Artifact.

    On the other hand, if Gloom happens in many places, and if the "anti-gloom potions" that crafters can make only really serve to take the edge off of Gloom's effects, but don't stop it entirely - then, the Bone-Woven Veil is still a very desirable thing for players to get.

    So, my answer is...it depends. I think for each Atmosphere (or Artifact) that can exist, we should look at the following:
    - Does it make sense that crafters could make a less effective countermeasure to the atmosphere, or version of the artifact?
    - How much actual need exists for the item(s) in question? Is it just one place in the world where they're needed, or are there lots of places?
    - How easy or hard is it to actually obtain the similar Artifact? If there's an easy quest on every continent where players can pick up the Skyhold Grappler, is there really a point to having a lesser crafted version of the same item?

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see crafters participating in this system, when it makes sense for them to do so. For example, allowing alchemists to make consumables that counteract atmospheres like Gloom seems like it would be tremendous for that profession. But, it really just depends on all the other factors as to whether that's really right for the game or not.



    Those are our thoughts on this topic! Now let us know what you think!

    As a bonus question (and one that we didn't ask our staff first), should there be crafting-related Artifacts?

    • 766 posts
    March 24, 2019 9:20 AM PDT

    Not much of a crafter theorist (though I do enjoy making things!) - but here are a couple thoughts:

    0) Atmospheres should exist early and often, introduced by level 5-10 and covering at least 20% of the group content (probably 95% of the "interesting" content, or folk will just avoid them)

    1) Artifacts should be very rare, difficult to obtain, and top-of-the-line for mitigating atmospheres

    2) Crafted bits (potions, totems, jewelry, etc.) must be able to take the edge off the atmosphere - as not everyone will have an artifact, and you want people to dive in, not avoid

    3) Atmospheres should exist in 3-5 tiers with increasing power - becoming more and more difficult at higher levels

    4) Crafted bits should be similarly tiered - a level 1 potion is fine support in that first gloom you encounter, but hardly noticeable during the top end GLOOM

    5) The key ingredients for atmosphere effect mitigation bobbles should be uncommon/rare, and perhaps found in the atmospheres themselves. Near the edges for same tier, and deep in for next tier.

    If artifacts are crafted items, there should be a component that is an extremely rare drop to reduce over-abundance. OR - perhaps artifacts wear over time from exposure to their attuned atmosphere. Requiring replacement/repair. But that gets into the entire gear repair/replacement debate - as a bard I prefer to only seek new reeds for my shawm, or strings for my lute, not the entire instrument.

     

     

     

     

    • 1522 posts
    March 24, 2019 12:13 PM PDT

    I like the idea of tiered atmospheres and corresponding tiers of mitigations.  Very cool Kumu!

    • 162 posts
    March 25, 2019 1:41 AM PDT

    i pretty much had the same idea as Kumu stated. The only thing i'm missing is that crafters can only craft these mitigating means at a relic shrine (or the likes) or that they have to posses the relic in the first place to learn how it works and craft up a corresponding subskill to get the better mitigating tier crafts.

    • 1816 posts
    March 25, 2019 1:21 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    In the February newsletter we learned a bit more about how VR envisions Atmospheres working, and how artifacts might be used to help players function within an atmosphere. It's important to note that while some atmospheres, like Gloom, seem centered on affecting players' stats, others, like Frenetic Floor, seem like they will apply effects that change the way movement or combat works entirely. With all of that in mind, how do you feel that crafting should work with this system? Should crafters be able to make items and equipment that can function like lesser version of artifacts? What about consumables to help mitigate the effects of Atmospheres? Or, should this solely be the province of Artifacts that people have to obtain through adventuring?

    As a bonus question (and one that we didn't ask our staff first), should there be crafting-related Artifacts?

    I agree with what Kumu posted about crafting and its relationship with the Artifacts and the atmosphere system.  Tiers, where you have items of varying effectiveness that come from different sources gives players a logical progression.

    You can't have a super-effective artifact available at level 5 for some atmosphere..that makes no sense.  What does is having crafted or looted items that have limited effectiveness but can be replaced as the player goes up in levels.  Thus that area of undead in the newbie area would only need a little talisman you can buy off a town vendor.  The atmosphere effect isn't super powerful and neither is the talisman, but having it still better than not.  Yet not having it won't make you avoid the area, just hamper you enough to be noticeable.

    The artifacts would be what you want to located for those areas at the level cap.  They would have the highest effectiveness yet a raid dropped item or special crafted item (using very rare items with mulitple combines from multiple tradeskills) could provide enough protection such that you could get by for a little bit, but it would be difficult.

    I could even see how these talismans could be an evolving item such that by adding to them over time, they increase in effectiveness.  I compare this to the Coldain Prayer Shawl quest in EQ1 where you had to progress through 8 steps with each step having the item increase in strength.  The final step (which needed at least a full group if not two) would then net you the final much-improved item.  So you could start with a store-bought talisman at level 5 and as you level up you engage other tradeskill players to increase your talisman's effectiveness.

    • 162 posts
    March 27, 2019 7:29 AM PDT

    I like what Vandraad offers here, a charm like item that can be leveled up.

    If that does find itsself to the game, it also needs a level restriction tho. As i have previously stated in other gear related topics. i do not want to see a level 5 twink alt running abouts with a completely maxxed out charm.

    • 1522 posts
    March 27, 2019 10:43 AM PDT

    Agreed on some kind of restriction that keeps twinking from getting out of hand.  For artifacts as well as everything else :)